AMA loyalty
05-01-2016, 09:54 AM
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AMA loyalty
In light of the prevailing sentiment that the AMA has prostituted itself in favor of the big bucks they will reap in supporting drones and abandoning the traditional aspect of RC, I would like to pose a two part question. One: how many of the long time members of the AMA will be renewing and supporting the AMA in the future? And two: What percentage of the new drone craze will become/remain members of the AMA and support them in the way to which they have become accustomed?
05-01-2016, 10:58 AM
#2
I'd have to understand what you mean by your statement before I could answer your questions. What ARE you talking about?
05-01-2016, 02:50 PM
#4
In what way do you feel the AMA has "abandoning the traditional aspect of RC" ? Yes I see that the AMA has included MR/drone/quads in their coverage. But I fail to see where they have given up on traditional RC flying.
The amount of time spent trying to keep our flying freedom from being taken away is more than anyone else is doing. I as well as many others have written letters and MANY RC'ers have been on the RC forums crying about how the AMA has stabbed them in the back. But how many of the people OTHER than the AMA staff have spent any time talking one to one with the FAA or government? Stop B I T C H I N G about what the AMA is doing to you. Join the fight, get out there and do something other than sit at your keyboard and whine!
The amount of time spent trying to keep our flying freedom from being taken away is more than anyone else is doing. I as well as many others have written letters and MANY RC'ers have been on the RC forums crying about how the AMA has stabbed them in the back. But how many of the people OTHER than the AMA staff have spent any time talking one to one with the FAA or government? Stop B I T C H I N G about what the AMA is doing to you. Join the fight, get out there and do something other than sit at your keyboard and whine!
05-02-2016, 03:06 AM
#5
In light of the prevailing sentiment that the AMA has prostituted itself in favor of the big bucks they will reap in supporting drones and abandoning the traditional aspect of RC, I would like to pose a two part question. One: how many of the long time members of the AMA will be renewing and supporting the AMA in the future? And two: What percentage of the new drone craze will become/remain members of the AMA and support them in the way to which they have become accustomed?
2- guessing you're asking will new "drone only" guys join the AMA,, Some might if they are OK with the restrictions, but yes,, that will be a very small % IMO...
It's obvious to me the AMA thought the had these new guys wrangled into joining with the previous Community Based Organization language,, oops,, not so much
05-02-2016, 03:21 AM
#6
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Just more of the same anti MR and anti AMA narrative. MR bad, AMA greedy....it's like the Alex Jones theories have started hitting here now too.
05-02-2016, 03:24 AM
#7
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1- Since every flying site and Club I have access to requires AMA,,, Nothing will change until there's a viable alternative
2- guessing you're asking will new "drone only" guys join the AMA,, Some might if they are OK with the restrictions, but yes,, that will be a very small % IMO...
It's obvious to me the AMA thought the had these new guys wrangled into joining with the previous Community Based Organization language,, oops,, not so much
2- guessing you're asking will new "drone only" guys join the AMA,, Some might if they are OK with the restrictions, but yes,, that will be a very small % IMO...
It's obvious to me the AMA thought the had these new guys wrangled into joining with the previous Community Based Organization language,, oops,, not so much
05-02-2016, 04:16 AM
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I have been a member of the AMA since 1962, and from around 1967 I have always felt if there was a different organization that would provide the same benefits as the AMA I would join them. None has come about so far that has lasted for very long so I am where I am.
05-02-2016, 07:06 AM
#10
Moderator
The question was asked on a false premise. The AMA has not abandoned other types of RC flying in order to embrace drones. It wasn't an either/or question. The truth is the AMA made the right choice to include drones in its media coverage and its legal advocating for the hobby. The public perception is that the two hobbies are the same, so the government will treat them as the same .So what's good for one is good for the other.
What alarms me is the fairly recent attitude among many aeromodelers that anything new is bad. This hobby has traditionally been about innovating and experimentation and embracing new ideas and new technology. Not so anymore, at least not among the old guys. We used to be a community that looked forward; now we are mostly a community that looks back. That's far more dangerous to us than any proposals of government regulation. I hear the stories of 70's era advances in planes and radios and flying technique, the result of a pioneering spirit which is practically non-existent today in the hobby. The innovators are still around though. Some of them fly foamies in the park, but most of them build and fly drones now. When any community starts to disparage innovation death is close behind. We (the aeromodeling community) will embrace drones, autonomous flight, and FPV flight or we will cease to exist in a few more years. So the AMA was exactly right in accepting this exciting new technology into what it does so that it can develop and mature as "traditional" aeromodeling has. I for one love my Cub and my Kaos, but I also enjoy my quadcopter. There is room for both.
What alarms me is the fairly recent attitude among many aeromodelers that anything new is bad. This hobby has traditionally been about innovating and experimentation and embracing new ideas and new technology. Not so anymore, at least not among the old guys. We used to be a community that looked forward; now we are mostly a community that looks back. That's far more dangerous to us than any proposals of government regulation. I hear the stories of 70's era advances in planes and radios and flying technique, the result of a pioneering spirit which is practically non-existent today in the hobby. The innovators are still around though. Some of them fly foamies in the park, but most of them build and fly drones now. When any community starts to disparage innovation death is close behind. We (the aeromodeling community) will embrace drones, autonomous flight, and FPV flight or we will cease to exist in a few more years. So the AMA was exactly right in accepting this exciting new technology into what it does so that it can develop and mature as "traditional" aeromodeling has. I for one love my Cub and my Kaos, but I also enjoy my quadcopter. There is room for both.
05-02-2016, 08:37 AM
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Jester, you raise some good points. Is it really that the attitude towards drones is one of not accepting something new or is it that the outcome of some actions made by drone operators has brought negative publicity to the flying hobby to the point of having to register with an agency? I think that the disparagement you speak of is driven by the fact that the larger proportion of droners operate outside of the AMA and reasonable responsibility of actions. The anger and frustration is by including more traditional RC in with the drone crowd is that an uneducated public can't distinguish between responsible and irresponsible enjoyment of the hobby.
I can't say one way or the other if it was right for the AMA to embrace drones........ right now it feels like holding a lit stick of dynamite. It might blow up in your face, or it might not go off.
What I would like to suggest would be for the AMA to start a sub-chapter, if you will, to cater to the drone crowd. This gets some separation between "traditional line of site" aero modeling and the droning community. I see this as win / win in that the AMA can continue to develop the drone side and keeping publicity focused away from the more traditional aspects. Heck, call it the ADA - Academy of Drone A********.
Secondly, the AMA / FAA or soccer moms should expect that drones are locked out until the buyer inputs their FAA registration number to activate.... just like when you install new software on your computer.
I can't say one way or the other if it was right for the AMA to embrace drones........ right now it feels like holding a lit stick of dynamite. It might blow up in your face, or it might not go off.
What I would like to suggest would be for the AMA to start a sub-chapter, if you will, to cater to the drone crowd. This gets some separation between "traditional line of site" aero modeling and the droning community. I see this as win / win in that the AMA can continue to develop the drone side and keeping publicity focused away from the more traditional aspects. Heck, call it the ADA - Academy of Drone A********.
Secondly, the AMA / FAA or soccer moms should expect that drones are locked out until the buyer inputs their FAA registration number to activate.... just like when you install new software on your computer.
05-02-2016, 10:21 AM
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Well, now, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. The AMA has, without question, in the past advocated for and blazed the way for this hobby to progress. Now there is a perception, right or wrong, that the AMA has abandoned the traditional plank flier for the highly exciting and hugely profitable drone craze. I have supported the drone and the FPV technology right here on this forum, but only when it is done right. My fear is this (and it ain't whining): some long time members of the AMA feel as if the AMA has sold them out. How many of those folks, who are the backbone of the AMA, will continue to support them? Now couple that with the possibility that the drone community are more the kind of folks who buy a drone on a whim, go out and fly it and are not even aware of the existence of the AMA and couldn't care less if they were aware of them. They are not going to join the AMA. Flying drones or FPV is simply a momentary diversion from boredom to them and they are the ones who will fly in the presence of full scale aircraft or in downtown Manhattan or over the Super Bowl. Those folks present a very possible and permanent threat to the entire hobby.
The possible permanent damage to the hobby aside, let's consider two things: one, longtime members of the AMA feel wronged and may or may not bail out of the AMA. Two, a good percentage of the drone population are not going to join the AMA, may not even be aware of it. Where do these two possibilities leave the AMA?
If asked if I believe the AMA should have come out in favor of and supportive of drones, my answer would have to be "yes". We have to be forward looking and embrace progress. But, man, we have to find a way to rein these guys in and fly in a responsible manner. Or we're all gonna be hurting.
The possible permanent damage to the hobby aside, let's consider two things: one, longtime members of the AMA feel wronged and may or may not bail out of the AMA. Two, a good percentage of the drone population are not going to join the AMA, may not even be aware of it. Where do these two possibilities leave the AMA?
If asked if I believe the AMA should have come out in favor of and supportive of drones, my answer would have to be "yes". We have to be forward looking and embrace progress. But, man, we have to find a way to rein these guys in and fly in a responsible manner. Or we're all gonna be hurting.
05-02-2016, 11:14 AM
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Stupid question, but the main concern is about the restrictions that might be imposed upon LOS hobbyists, due to the irresponsibility of the new aspect of the hobby FPV/BLOS drones. Shouldn't the AMA be trying to advocate for exceptions to the new rulemaking for LOS flyers and/or CBO based flying sites?
It sounds more like they are trying to position themselves to be able to (personally) benefit the most from mandatory CBO membership, rather than to propose alternatives that might benefit all. I would like to see them advocating for exceptions to the flight restrictions for CBO registered flying sites. Then anyone could benefit from AMA/local club membership, rather than all feeling like they are losing something.
It sounds more like they are trying to position themselves to be able to (personally) benefit the most from mandatory CBO membership, rather than to propose alternatives that might benefit all. I would like to see them advocating for exceptions to the flight restrictions for CBO registered flying sites. Then anyone could benefit from AMA/local club membership, rather than all feeling like they are losing something.
05-02-2016, 12:48 PM
#14
Moderator
IMHO, embracing drones was necessary. I say so for several reasons.
1. Like it or not, the public will always put drones and RC airplanes and helis together. No amount of propaganda from the AMA can change that.
2. The drone hobby, as the wild cousin in this family, desperately needs some guidance. The AMA can provide that better than anyone else.
3. Drones are the most exciting thing to be done with RC technology in a long time. I'd say it's the biggest advancement since proportional control, and may well be a paradigm shift in the hobby. If that's true, rejecting it in the beginning would mean certain death for the AMA.
4. There is a lot of overlap between drones and traditional RC. I like both. So the AMA is better representing my interests by advocating and developing both hobbies, increasing its value to me as a member. I think with time pilots like me will become the majority.
5. If the AMA had officially rejected drones and tried to throw them under the bus with the FAA, they would have wound up with their own national organization eventually. That organization would likely have not been friendly to the rest of the RC community, creating a rivalry that could have become very destructive.
So all of that is to say that distancing itself from drones would have been an unlivable situation for the AMA. They made the right choice.
1. Like it or not, the public will always put drones and RC airplanes and helis together. No amount of propaganda from the AMA can change that.
2. The drone hobby, as the wild cousin in this family, desperately needs some guidance. The AMA can provide that better than anyone else.
3. Drones are the most exciting thing to be done with RC technology in a long time. I'd say it's the biggest advancement since proportional control, and may well be a paradigm shift in the hobby. If that's true, rejecting it in the beginning would mean certain death for the AMA.
4. There is a lot of overlap between drones and traditional RC. I like both. So the AMA is better representing my interests by advocating and developing both hobbies, increasing its value to me as a member. I think with time pilots like me will become the majority.
5. If the AMA had officially rejected drones and tried to throw them under the bus with the FAA, they would have wound up with their own national organization eventually. That organization would likely have not been friendly to the rest of the RC community, creating a rivalry that could have become very destructive.
So all of that is to say that distancing itself from drones would have been an unlivable situation for the AMA. They made the right choice.
05-02-2016, 12:58 PM
#15
Senior Member
Yes, AMA made the right choice. It is so easy to complain but let us see you take some positive steps to improve on AMA. Are you willing to devote any time and effort into helping those in office? Have you contacted any of them and made any helpful suggestions or given any aid to any of their functions? It is easy to over look all the good things that AMA has done for all of us modelers. Those who have been willing to hold office and work for AMA have my greatest admiration. We should all be thankful for their efforts. Rod AMA 1455, member since 1936
05-02-2016, 05:14 PM
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Yes, AMA made the right choice. It is so easy to complain but let us see you take some positive steps to improve on AMA. Are you willing to devote any time and effort into helping those in office? Have you contacted any of them and made any helpful suggestions or given any aid to any of their functions? It is easy to over look all the good things that AMA has done for all of us modelers. Those who have been willing to hold office and work for AMA have my greatest admiration. We should all be thankful for their efforts. Rod AMA 1455, member since 1936
good to hear from ama member with so many year of experience.
05-02-2016, 05:34 PM
#17
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Yes, AMA made the right choice. It is so easy to complain but let us see you take some positive steps to improve on AMA. Are you willing to devote any time and effort into helping those in office? Have you contacted any of them and made any helpful suggestions or given any aid to any of their functions? It is easy to over look all the good things that AMA has done for all of us modelers. Those who have been willing to hold office and work for AMA have my greatest admiration. We should all be thankful for their efforts. Rod AMA 1455, member since 1936
05-03-2016, 07:06 AM
#19
Ok, now that you've clarified where you're coming from I can make some input.
No, I will not abandon the AMA, member since 1968. It is still better to be a part of an organization that has the mass that is heard in Washington than to be a lone wolf that can be eliminated by a politician's folly.
I think what you express, traditional flyers being abandoned, can also be looked at as the AMA focusing it's limited resources fighting the problem that you identified: That rouge multi-rotor flyers will do immense harm to the entire hobby and the AMA is using those limited resources to shout to Washington that they are punishing the wrong people.
But then, we live in a society that appears to fail to comprehend root cause analysis. Don't actually fix the problem; apply an in effective stop gap to a symptom that doesn't do anything but hurt the innocent.
The bigger problem in the AMA is this intense us-vs-them division of the facets of the hobby.
At one time we were all model flyers, who enjoyed watching other modelers enjoy their aspects of the hobby. I can't do gas powered free flight but I can respect those who do for their skills, talent and dedication.
But today it's hate or banish or trash talk anyone who doesn't fly what you fly. And there appears to be no willingness to even try to show some respect for the other guy.
What happens to the AMA when one of these 'you're the wrong kind of flyer' thinkers gets in to one of our policy making positions?
However I do feel the AMA did prostitute itself big time over the park flyer issue. Offer a monetary discount to a very small group of flyers, who weren't interested in the AMA's rules or policies in the first place, and truly abandon the oldest section of the hobby. Specifically, does it make any sense that an indoor free flight flyer still has to pay for the same amount of liability as a 55 pound 200 mph jet. but the park flyer gets a discount?
No, I will not abandon the AMA, member since 1968. It is still better to be a part of an organization that has the mass that is heard in Washington than to be a lone wolf that can be eliminated by a politician's folly.
I think what you express, traditional flyers being abandoned, can also be looked at as the AMA focusing it's limited resources fighting the problem that you identified: That rouge multi-rotor flyers will do immense harm to the entire hobby and the AMA is using those limited resources to shout to Washington that they are punishing the wrong people.
But then, we live in a society that appears to fail to comprehend root cause analysis. Don't actually fix the problem; apply an in effective stop gap to a symptom that doesn't do anything but hurt the innocent.
The bigger problem in the AMA is this intense us-vs-them division of the facets of the hobby.
At one time we were all model flyers, who enjoyed watching other modelers enjoy their aspects of the hobby. I can't do gas powered free flight but I can respect those who do for their skills, talent and dedication.
But today it's hate or banish or trash talk anyone who doesn't fly what you fly. And there appears to be no willingness to even try to show some respect for the other guy.
What happens to the AMA when one of these 'you're the wrong kind of flyer' thinkers gets in to one of our policy making positions?
However I do feel the AMA did prostitute itself big time over the park flyer issue. Offer a monetary discount to a very small group of flyers, who weren't interested in the AMA's rules or policies in the first place, and truly abandon the oldest section of the hobby. Specifically, does it make any sense that an indoor free flight flyer still has to pay for the same amount of liability as a 55 pound 200 mph jet. but the park flyer gets a discount?
05-03-2016, 12:30 PM
#20
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Now a bit about me.I don't hate drones ,new technology or the AMA. I don't feel we will win this and made a bad decision in the direction we as a organization took. I'm a long term AMA member along with serving as a club officer for over 10 years and also am a AMA Contest Director. Does that carry any weight?
Mike
Last edited by rcmiket; 05-03-2016 at 01:21 PM.
05-03-2016, 02:47 PM
#21
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Doesn't that pretty much sum up the majority of the "droner's" who got us all the new regulations?
Now a bit about me.I don't hate drones ,new technology or the AMA. I don't feel we will win this and made a bad decision in the direction we as a organization took. I'm a long term AMA member along with serving as a club officer for over 10 years and also am a AMA Contest Director. Does that carry any weight?
Mike
Now a bit about me.I don't hate drones ,new technology or the AMA. I don't feel we will win this and made a bad decision in the direction we as a organization took. I'm a long term AMA member along with serving as a club officer for over 10 years and also am a AMA Contest Director. Does that carry any weight?
Mike
Continuing to point the finger at a group of fellow hobbyists is a waste of time, and only continues the divisiveness, and to what end, it's not changing anything. The continued insistence on ignoring the fact that commercialization brought us to where we are only reinforces the fact that folks haven't thought this through, and are letting their prejudices cloud their judgement.
05-04-2016, 12:56 PM
#23
Moderator
For those who don't like that the AMA chose to include (embrace is the wrong word, include is a much more accurate description of what they did) drones into its recognition of the hobby and advocation for hobby rights, my question is what would have had them do? Do you want the AMA to intentionally alienate the fastest growing segment of the RC hobby? Do you want the AMA to become a traditionalist organization that only recognizes hobby activities before a certain date? If so, what date? Would you have wanted the AMA to leave the nubile drone hobby to its own devices to figure out its own safety practices without the AMA's experience to guide them? And more that anything else, did you really want the AMA to create a permanent rift between drone pilots and traditional flyers? What's actually happening in the drone world is very similar to what happened to RC 40 years ago. It started as a wild and fairly unregulated hobby with lots of yahoos doing some pretty dangerous things that worked out ok most of the time. Then we got more organized and developed regulations as we grew. Drones are doing the same thing, and I predict within 10 years will be just as safe and respectable as plank flying is now.
05-04-2016, 01:12 PM
#24
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For those who don't like that the AMA chose to include (embrace is the wrong word, include is a much more accurate description of what they did) drones into its recognition of the hobby and advocation for hobby rights, my question is what would have had them do? Do you want the AMA to intentionally alienate the fastest growing segment of the RC hobby? Do you want the AMA to become a traditionalist organization that only recognizes hobby activities before a certain date? If so, what date? Would you have wanted the AMA to leave the nubile drone hobby to its own devices to figure out its own safety practices without the AMA's experience to guide them? And more that anything else, did you really want the AMA to create a permanent rift between drone pilots and traditional flyers? What's actually happening in the drone world is very similar to what happened to RC 40 years ago. It started as a wild and fairly unregulated hobby with lots of yahoos doing some pretty dangerous things that worked out ok most of the time. Then we got more organized and developed regulations as we grew. Drones are doing the same thing, and I predict within 10 years will be just as safe and respectable as plank flying is now.
So the answer is they shouldn't do anything, or rather do everything, but it has to be done right.